Speyburn not a Speyside?

[Lawrence]

The vast majority of consumers are unlikely ever to understand, or care that much.

Bingo

[Lawrence]

c) The erroneous assumption that because a distillery lies within the bounds of Speyside it must be a Speyside malt.

Okay, I'll bite. If a distillery lies within the bounds of Speyside, how can it not be a Speyside malt, regardless of what they choose to print on the label?

Hmm, let me put it this way. A few hundred years ago the parliaments of Scotland and England were merged. Now almost everyone from outside of the UK refers to the UK as England. Does that make me English?

Well I've meet you so I know the answer but I think you've answered your own question in that almost everyone outside the UK will refer to you as English; what does your passport say?

Almost everybody in the UK says that I live in 'America' which is really irritating.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

That doesn't follow. It's more like you're claiming that because you can say you're either British or Scottish, you aren't necessarily Scottish.

[Willie JJ]

My point is that the Speyside label is one that has been attached to some distilleries by a third party. If they don't want to recognise that I quite understand their point of view.

[Willie JJ]

what does your passport say?

I'm pretty sure my passport says I'm British or a UK citizen. Not English or Scottish.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

what does your passport say?

I'm pretty sure my passport says I'm British or a UK citizen. Not English or Scottish.

It doesn't mean you aren't Scottish, either.

[Willie JJ]

Agreed, but if I had been British before somebody had defined the boundaries of Scotland I might still feel I was British rather than Scottish.

[kallaskander]

Hi there,

is the distillery at

57° 29' 3'' N -3° 12' 27'' W

a Highland or a Speyside distillery?

Greetings
kallaskander

[Nick Brown]

Almost everybody in the UK says that I live in 'America' which is really irritating.

Have you moved?

[John Barleycorn]

This is not the case... I visited Speyside distillery last spring and Andrew Shand at the distillery made it very clear that they considered themselves a Speyside distillery... and not highland...

Yes, I quite agree The Speyside Distillery is physically in the Speyside region, only just, but without any shadow of a doubt; but that is not how they market themselves, on their labelling and web site it clearly states ‘The Speyside Single Highland Malt’ and not ‘Speyside Malt’. Now Andrew may say that ‘they’ consider themselves to be a Speyside distillery but who are ‘they’, if by ‘they’ he means the owners of the distillery then surly they would market the product as ‘The Speyside Single Speyside Malt’ but they don’t, should he be referring to himself and or other that may work at the distillery then that is only their opinion? However, if he is referring to its location then he's correct.

[Willie JJ]

surly they would market the product as ‘The Speyside Single Speyside Malt’

That's just a bit clumsy and unnecessary though isn't it? The Speyside Single Highland Malt just sounds a lot better.

[Pete Smoke]

surly they would market the product as ‘The Speyside Single Speyside Malt’

That's just a bit clumsy and unnecessary though isn't it? The Speyside Single Highland Malt just sounds a lot better.

It certainly covers both bases, especially as the distillery name gets lost in the confusion, particularly to those that don't know any better.

[Willie JJ]

Maybe that's the plan

[Mr Tattie Heid]

Almost everybody in the UK says that I live in 'America' which is really irritating.

Have you moved?

Everyone between Tuktoyaktuk and Tierra Del Fuego lives in America.

Hi there,

is the distillery at

57° 29' 3'' N -3° 12' 27'' W

a Highland or a Speyside distillery?

Yes.

(You could roll a ball into the Spey from there.)

[Nick Brown]

Hi there,

is the distillery at

57° 29' 3'' N -3° 12' 27'' W

a Highland or a Speyside distillery?

Greetings
kallaskander

This is Macallan, isn't it? If so, wouldn't it be easier all round to ask by name? As noted earlier, Speyside is a sub-region of Highland and distilleries within the Speyside subregion can use the label Speydide or Highland as they please.

[kallaskander]

Hi there,

yep, that is Macallan.

In the middle of Speyside only they prefer to print Highland Malt on their labels.

Which is of course true as everything north of the Highland line is a Highland malt.

If you take the 2009 legislation seriously all Island malts are Highland malts now.

Not that they have ever been something else but Island malt in my ears carries more

information than Highland malt if a whisky comes from an island and the same is the case with Speyside malt.

Greetings
kallaskander

[Tim F]

Firstly, sincere apologies for being so late to this discussion. I have been unable to get through to any of the threads for the last few weeks as I have previously only used the view active topics link. Now I have a lot of reading to do to catch up.

Secondly, to those that said them, many thanks for the kind words, they're much appreciated.

Thirdly:

... I have to take exception to Tim's assertion that Michael Jackson's and hence the TWE's classification is the 'correct' one...

...Tim accuses Inver House of managing to get two of their distilleries '‘wrong’ under Michael Jackson / TWE criteria (and despite updating the packaging for Knockdhu / an Cnoc only a few years ago)'. This is grossly unfair as they are clearly acting within the guidelines. TWE, however, are not when they advertise Glenglassaugh, Glendronach and Tomatin as Speyside distilleries. From the guidance:

it is illegal to use a locality or regional geographical name in relation to a Scotch Whisky which has not been distilled in the locality or region in question.

.... the handy SWA map is unambiguous:
SWA Regional Map

From this Glenglassaugh, Glendronach and Tomatin are clearly defined as Highland whiskies and any attempt to label them as Speyside by the proprietors would be illegal.

I guess retailers' marketing via websites is not subject to the labelling restrictions of the SWA, but there's no point in berating distillers for getting it wrong when they have clearly complied with the regulations and accompanying guidance.

Unarguable points, Willie. I stand humbly corrected. I'll change the region for those three on the TWE site forthwith and add a clarification on the blog. I'm also indebted to you for the map, which I was previously unaware of.


However, although Inver House are acting within the guidelines with regards to the labelling and I accept that my criticism of them for that is harsh, I don't think any distillery located within the legally-defined region of Speyside should be allowed to enter a tasting competition with a Speyside category as a Highland malt, regardless of how they choose to label their whiskies. If everyone in Speyside and the Islands could tactically choose from either of two regions to enter then the competition would be meaningless. Having said all that, I personally believe that in this case what Inver House did was a mistake rather than a deliberate tactic, and in my opinion the greater fault in this case is with Whisky Magazine for not picking up on the issue, although I am also convinced that they acted in good faith.

I do still think the guidelines are bit silly, though, as there's no question that by allowing distilleries to pick and choose which region they want to display they are confusing for the casual whisky drinker. In my opinion, if distilleries in the legally-defined Speyside region want to call themselves Highland they should be allowed to do so - but they should also have to say Speyside on the label as well.

To play devil's advocate, for clarity/simplification should the SWA / Govt. have done away with the Speyside classification? Also, I can't understand why they didn't recognise the Island classification, which, like Highland, is an easily-understandable term for new consumers.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

"Island" is hard to justify as a geographical region, since it would include distilleries on Arran, Jura, Mull, Skye, Lewis, and Orkney. Skye is about as far from Arran as Oban is from Bladnoch, and Orkney as far again.

[MacDeffe]

I've always wondered why Speyside wasnt defined by its watershed ??

(This would but Glen Moray into Highlands, if not Lossieside as an example)

What exactly formed Speyside the whisky region ?

The Scotch Whisky Regulations 2009 ??

Steffen

[Tim F]

I've always wondered why Speyside wasnt defined by its watershed ??

(This would but Glen Moray into Highlands, if not Lossieside as an example)

What exactly formed Speyside the whisky region ?

The Scotch Whisky Regulations 2009 ??

Steffen

Geo-political 'wards' - another mistake, imho.

[MacDeffe]

Was looking through the maps of Moray Council and the Badenoch and Strathspey ward in the Highland Council

The Definition of Speyside here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009 ... 890_en.pdf

(allready linked above by Willie)

puts Knockdhu, Speyside and Dalwhinnie in Speyside

Steffen

[MacDeffe]

Whisky Magazine Independent Bottler's Challenge

http://www.whiskymag.com/awards/ibc/2012/

Royal Brackla won a Lowland Award

MacDuff won a Speyside award



Steffen

[ColSanders]

Err.... what?

[Mr Tattie Heid]

Ha, you think that's odd, I just looked up Brackla in Jackson's Companion, 5th Edition, and it says this:

REGION: Highlands ISLAND: Arran DISTRICT: Speyside (Findhorn Valley)

I had a completely different idea of where the Isle of Arran was...I guess I was misinformed.

[Jolly Toper]

I might be wrong but weren't Dalwhinnie (very near the source of the Spey) and Edradour (Glenforres) suffixed with -Glenlivet , the controversy over nomenclature isn't new. The SWA like to use 'traditional practice' as a suitably grey area for allowing and banning certain practices - like 100% malted barley through column stills is not traditional so can't be allowed to be recognised as malt whisky even if it did happen in the 19th century- it was decided the practice wasn't 'traditional' as they wished to ban the practice, as used at a distillery which is not a member of the SWA

The use of geographic boundaries to define whisky production was originally used for taxation classes. Speyside, like all the regions was never formally identified until 2009. I didn't realise about the choice of Highland/Speyside - this seems to be creating more confusion rather than clarity. Tch, bureaucrats.

Anyway next year Cadenheads will be entering Springbank as an Island (non-Islay) in the Whisky Magazine awards in the hope the judges don't realise the Argyle peninsula is actually attached to the mainland, should be a breeze after mistaking Cadenheads' Royal Brackla for a Lowlander. Then we can put Hazelburn into the Lowland category, it's triple distilled and unpeated - how more traditionally Lowland can you get?

How long before Diageo build a distilery on an oil rig and tug it around the country, Lowland on Monday, Islay malt on Tuesday etc, Hey presto scuttle the other 28 distilleries and think of the savings.

Sceptically and pessimistically yours

JT