The Campaign for Real Whisky

[Tim F]

Not sure, good question. That would be harder to defend.

[olikli]

John is a lovely man, very genuine, and I'm certain that were I to ask him he would tell me that 99.9% of the colour of laphroaig comes from the casks and the caramel is negligible, but a necessary evil for batch colour consistency.

Nobody could detect a 0.1% shift in tint with the naked eye. I wouldn't even be very sure about a 1% shift.

[mongo]

Not sure, good question. That would be harder to defend.

actually, it's not a good question. the reason would be the same, right: to make all batches the same colour? but it was kind of you to be generous to the idiot.

the silly thing with laphroaig (and diageo with laga and caol ila) is that the bottles are dark to begin with--and small colour variations are only really visible in full or near-full bottles. this mythical "average consumer" who everyone seems so worried about is not going to stare at the whisky in the glass so closely nor save samples from the previous batch to compare.

[olikli]

so they don't put it in the new 10yo cs then?

From whisky.de a pretty reliable German source regarding coloured whisky.

[Tim F]

ballsed up reply, move along

[Rogerdodger]

so they don't put it in the new 10yo cs then?

From whisky.de a pretty reliable German source regarding coloured whisky.

laphcs.jpg

So you underestimate the "average consumer" Oliver, who can clearly detect a 1% change in colour of Laphroaig in a green bottle and thus not buy the bottle. That would wreak havoc on the sales of Laphroaig .....

[Tim F]

Not sure, good question. That would be harder to defend.

actually, it's not a good question. the reason would be the same, right: to make all batches the same colour? but it was kind of you to be generous to the idiot.

Bah, just lost a load of reply - but the gist of it was that it's not a silly question: if you are having batches it is fine for them to be different colours.

The big point here is that surely it would be better for the industry in the long run to admit that batch variation exists, and at the same time explain that this is why the colour may vary, thereby obviating the need for E150.

I think Laphroaig are ahead of the curve here - surely the sensible thing to do is to embrace batch variation and turn it into a virtue - it's a marketing opportunity, for god's sake! There are lots of people who are buying every batch of Laph Cask strength so they can compare them - if it wasn't in small batches there's be no need to have more than one bottle.

[edited for typos]

[Aidan]

so they don't put it in the new 10yo cs then?

From whisky.de a pretty reliable German source regarding coloured whisky.

laphcs.jpg

That site, I believe, says some of Irish Distillers products like Redbreast 15, Redbreast 12, Jameson 12... and so on are coloured. Now maybe they are, but IDL have told me that they do not colour any of their premium products or products with age statements. One or the other isn't right.

[olikli]

so they don't put it in the new 10yo cs then?

From whisky.de a pretty reliable German source regarding coloured whisky.

laphcs.jpg

That site, I believe, says some of Irish Distillers products like Redbreast 15, Redbreast 12, Jameson 12... and so on are coloured. Now maybe they are, but IDL have told me that they do not colour any of their premium products or products with age statements. One or the other isn't right.

If you google "redbreast farbstoff" you will find plenty of German online shops that state the same, so I see no reason not to believe this. Can you cite a UK or Irish site where it is advertised as uncoloured? Then things would start to get interesting...

[C57]

And I would suspect it's the website. IDL know their products, whereas the website owners are outsiders gathering what information they can.
Don't believe everything you read on the web.

(Equally don't believe everything a producer tells you!)

[C57]

From whisky.de a pretty reliable German source regarding coloured whisky.

laphcs.jpg

That site, I believe, says some of Irish Distillers products like Redbreast 15, Redbreast 12, Jameson 12... and so on are coloured. Now maybe they are, but IDL have told me that they do not colour any of their premium products or products with age statements. One or the other isn't right.

If you google "redbreast farbstoff" you will find plenty of German online shops that state the same, so I see no reason not to believe this. Can you cite a UK or Irish site where it is advertised as uncoloured? Then things would start to get interesting...

Well we know how that works.
One site puts something up, another quotes it, pretty soon it's gospel whether it's fact or not

[olikli]

Sadly my personal bottle of Redbreast 12 bought at that very shop has recently been disposed of being empty.

[Aidan]

No, I cannot. I only know I talked to some senior people involved in the production at the Midleton distillery and they said they don't use it in the aged products. Now maybe they are mistaken. I'm not saying one is right or the other is wrong, but someone is wrong. Maybe it even says on the bottles it's coloured?

Also, the likes of Jameson and Redbreast uses a lot of sherry casks, first fill, so you'd imagine they wouldn't need colouring?

[Aidan]

I'm not saying one is right or the other is wrong, but someone is wrong.

Clearly, I am saying that one is wrong. I just don't know who.

[Pete Smoke]

One site puts something up, another quotes it, pretty soon it's gospel whether it's fact or not

Isn't it on the labels?

[portwood]

I'm not saying one is right or the other is wrong, but someone is wrong.

Clearly, I am saying that one is wrong. I just don't know who.

They could both be "right"!
The producer does not currently add e150, but may have in the past, and may in the future.
The label, which may not have changed for a while, still says colour added. Thus the retailer reading the label is also correct.

It's like the "may contain peanuts" on chocolate bars.

[olikli]

I've dug around in the forums of whisky.de and have found some slightly disturbing information which causes me to reconsider my recent postings about the Laphoraig CS and the Redbreast.

Apparently sometimes bottles of coloured whisky make their way to Germany that have no approriate labels, perhaps because they are re-imported from a country that doesn't require it. The fines that are connected with this law have to be paid be the dealer, not by the producer. It is not illegal to export unmarked but coloured bottles to Germany, it is only illegal to sell them without stating the use of E150a.

To be on the safe side, they treat any unmarked whisky where they haven't got waterproof information about the use of E150a as being coloured and and mark it in the shop - even it it may not be coloured at all.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

Also, the likes of Jameson and Redbreast uses a lot of sherry casks, first fill, so you'd imagine they wouldn't need colouring?

There would still be some variability, and thus the presumed need for standardization.

I suggested here once that "mit Farbstoff" might appear on some bottles that don't have coloring, simply because some batches might not need any touch-up, and someone (Malty, maybe) pooh-poohed the idea, saying if says "mit Farbstoff", then it's mit Farbstoff. I would still tend to read it as "may contain coloring," or to be more accurate, "there's a 98-99% chance that this has coloring in it."

[Pete Smoke]

The claim was iirc, that the labelling regs in Germany wouldn't allow incorrect information on the labels. Besides, how would the German authorities fine retailers ( as per Oliver's above post ) if it's all a grey area anyway, how do they know if the label info is incorrect or not?

[Malt-Teaser]

Also, the likes of Jameson and Redbreast uses a lot of sherry casks, first fill, so you'd imagine they wouldn't need colouring?

There would still be some variability, and thus the presumed need for standardization.

I suggested here once that "mit Farbstoff" might appear on some bottles that don't have coloring, simply because some batches might not need any touch-up, and someone (Malty, maybe) pooh-poohed the idea, saying if says "mit Farbstoff", then it's mit Farbstoff. I would still tend to read it as "may contain coloring," or to be more accurate, "there's a 98-99% chance that this has coloring in it."

Yes, I still say that the bottle labels are correct.
What Oliver has discovered is that website information may not be.
Malty

[olikli]

The claim was iirc, that the labelling regs in Germany wouldn't allow incorrect information on the labels. Besides, how would the German authorities fine retailers ( as per Oliver's above post ) if it's all a grey area anyway, how do they know if the label info is incorrect or not?

Authorities don't check this. But if are a competing dealer and you can prove that the information is incorrect, you can take legal action against the other dealer.

[Malt-Teaser]

As for Laphroaig; I have an empty Batch 002 CS bottle here on my desk and it seems to be an import (from Holland?) which says "Farven justeret meo ( or is it med?) Karamel".
That's on the bottle back label, the tube is 100% English language and as such says nothing about E150a.

Malty

[olikli]

Also, the likes of Jameson and Redbreast uses a lot of sherry casks, first fill, so you'd imagine they wouldn't need colouring?

There would still be some variability, and thus the presumed need for standardization.

I suggested here once that "mit Farbstoff" might appear on some bottles that don't have coloring, simply because some batches might not need any touch-up, and someone (Malty, maybe) pooh-poohed the idea, saying if says "mit Farbstoff", then it's mit Farbstoff. I would still tend to read it as "may contain coloring," or to be more accurate, "there's a 98-99% chance that this has coloring in it."

Yes, I still say that the bottle labels are correct.
What Oliver has discovered is that website information may not be.
Malty

Not necessarily as I posted above. Because you may see "grey market" bottles floating around (re-imports or duty free) that are not correctly labelled. This is why they treat any whisky withough legally binding commitment by the producers as coloured.

[olikli]

As for Laphroaig; I have an empty Batch 002 CS bottle here on my desk and it seems to be an import (from Holland?) which says "Farven justeret meo ( or is it med?) Karamel".
That's on the bottle back label, the tube is 100% English language and as such says nothing about E150a.

Malty

Just to prove my previous point: My own bottle of Batch 002 bought in Germany is an unmarked UK bottle with the duty mark scraped off!

[Aidan]

Also, the likes of Jameson and Redbreast uses a lot of sherry casks, first fill, so you'd imagine they wouldn't need colouring?

There would still be some variability, and thus the presumed need for standardization.

That could be it, sure enough. I just have it in my head, without much evidence, that the variation in an already darker whiskey would be less than one that is usually lighter in colour. So it wouldn't matter as much.