The Campaign for Real Whisky

[karlejnar]

As for Laphroaig; I have an empty Batch 002 CS bottle here on my desk and it seems to be an import (from Holland?) which says "Farven justeret meo ( or is it med?) Karamel".

The right word is "med" which means "with". It's danish for: "The colour is adjusted with (or using?) caramel"
Funny that's there is a danish marking on a dutch bottle - maybe it was re-imported from Denmark via Holland

[Malt-Teaser]

As for Laphroaig; I have an empty Batch 002 CS bottle here on my desk and it seems to be an import (from Holland?) which says "Farven justeret meo ( or is it med?) Karamel".

The right word is "med" which means "with". It's danish for: "The colour is adjusted with (or using?) caramel"
Funny that's there is a danish marking on a dutch bottle - maybe it was re-imported from Denmark via Holland

My apologies, I somehow thought this was Dutch
Anyway, it was bought from a German seller so maybe they got hold of some Danish stock.

[karlejnar]

@Malty - Nae bother (as they always say in Scotland)

Apparantly Denmark and Germany are the only EU countries where caramel has to be declared. I've even seen labels with both german and danish declarations.

But I'm amazed by the fact that a german reseller is the one being punished, if the label is wrong. And that it's sometimes put on the label - or on a website - just to be on the safe side

Agree it's on the same level as "may contain nuts or milk". Not very helpful if you're suffering from nut allergy or lactose intolerance

[Malt-Teaser]

I find it hard to believe that a label would be wrong
Labels are put on by the distilleries, or probably more accurately by the bottlers, but under the strict instructions of the distilleries who consider the laws in their target markets.

If there's no caramel, why would they put it on the label?
Although I do understand Oliver's point about websites playing 'safe' in this way.

I also thought Holland had to declare caramel?
Malty

[mongo]

if the rear labels, where this notice usually appears, were a generic slapped on all a distillery's bottles, all of which might not contain caramel, this would be understandable: rather than print runs of two labels they can just do one, knowing that the average consumer doesn't really care. but that's not really the case: most rear labels are specific to a particular bottling (i am looking for example at the label of the laga 12 focm) and there's no reason to explicitly print information on a label that does not apply to the whisky in the bottle. also, if that were the case you'd expect those labels would be used in the american market as well.

so: i am inclined to agree with malt_teaser.

[Pete Smoke]

I find it hard to believe that a label would be wrong
Labels are put on by the distilleries, or probably more accurately by the bottlers, but under the strict instructions of the distilleries who consider the laws in their target markets.

If there's no caramel, why would they put it on the label?

I fully agree Keith. These laws are generally strictly enforced. Besides aren't the Germans efficient and organised generally, they're coming across more like a bunch of Brits. If it was my distillery i would be very concerned if my un-coloured whisky was labelled as "With Colour".

I buy the over-caution concerning websites, but surely the labels are correct ( i would assume they are, but for the very rare occasion ).

[olikli]

I find it hard to believe that a label would be wrong
Labels are put on by the distilleries, or probably more accurately by the bottlers, but under the strict instructions of the distilleries who consider the laws in their target markets.

If there's no caramel, why would they put it on the label?

I fully agree Keith. These laws are generally strictly enforced. Besides aren't the Germans efficient and organised generally, they're coming across more like a bunch of Brits. If it was my distillery i would be very concerned if my un-coloured whisky was labelled as "With Colour".

You both don't seem to get the real point. It's not about uncoloured whisky with labels stating it's coloured. It's the other way round.

The problem is that in Germany there are coloured bottles sold that are NOT labelled as coloured because they are from other markets or because some producers only have a label designed for the UK market where the use of colouring doesn't have to be stated on the label.

[Malt-Teaser]

But Oliver,
nothing can be done about that unless al lEU countries adopt E150 labelling, or unless the sellers are reported for selling unofficially imported goods.

[Malt-Teaser]

Just to add a little extra something, albeit not whisky:

I know for a fact that the KVR in Munich are extremely sensitive with zero tolerance for goods being sold without German-language labelling, certainly when it comes to lists of ingredients. I know of an English shop which was threatened with immediate fines and then closure if they didn't make available German lists of ingredients for all the foodstuffs they offer.

As you know (Oliver) there is another English shop in Erding and when they opened the local Health & Safety paid a visit and Martin, the shop owner, specifically asked about German labelling. "No problem" came the answer, "if anyone wants to know I'm sure you can tell them in German".

[olikli]

But Oliver,
nothing can be done about that unless al lEU countries adopt E150 labelling, or unless the sellers are reported for selling unofficially imported goods.

It seems to be legal to sell such bottles. But ONLY if the shops add information that they are coloured.

This is why they say "All unmarked bottles are treated as coloured unless the producer proves to us that they are not". By doing so they make sure that no bottle of coloured whisky is sold without information.

This only works because legally it is irrelevant when a shop says a whisky is coloured if in fact it is not.

[Malt-Teaser]

Sorry for not clarifying, but my comments on legality refer mainly to tax issues, although I still say that if a bottle of Glen Wonka is sold in Germany with an English label that states nothing about E150, even if the website does say "contains E150", this is illegal as the bottle may have been bought in person from the seller and not via an online sale.

[Pete Smoke]

I fully agree Keith. These laws are generally strictly enforced. Besides aren't the Germans efficient and organised generally, they're coming across more like a bunch of Brits. If it was my distillery i would be very concerned if my un-coloured whisky was labelled as "With Colour".

You both don't seem to get the real point. It's not about uncoloured whisky with labels stating it's coloured. It's the other way round.

The problem is that in Germany there are coloured bottles sold that are NOT labelled as coloured because they are from other markets or because some producers only have a label designed for the UK market where the use of colouring doesn't have to be stated on the label.

I was referring to this (below). I'm aware the problem goes both ways, but if i was a distillery owner, the case i quote above would concern me the most.

To be on the safe side, they treat any unmarked whisky where they haven't got waterproof information about the use of E150a as being coloured and and mark it in the shop - even it it may not be coloured at all.

[olikli]

Sorry for not clarifying, but my comments on legality refer mainly to tax issues, although I still say that if a bottle of Glen Wonka is sold in Germany with an English label that states nothing about E150, even if the website does say "contains E150", this is illegal as the bottle may have been bought in person from the seller and not via an online sale.

Due to lack of legal knowledge I can't say anything about the tax issue, although I have a vaguely dubious feeling about that as well

But to the best of my knowledge at least whisky.de have checked out the legal aspects about selling bottles with foreign language labels that may not include the mention of E150a. And it seems that most of the German online shops adhere to that practice. If there really was a risk of this being illegal, there would habe been a wave of "Abmahnungen" like it is being constantly done in the online business. And some of these would certainly have landed in in front of a judge. But I have not seen any evidence of this, so I have to assume the practice is ok.

[olikli]

I fully agree Keith. These laws are generally strictly enforced. Besides aren't the Germans efficient and organised generally, they're coming across more like a bunch of Brits. If it was my distillery i would be very concerned if my un-coloured whisky was labelled as "With Colour".

You both don't seem to get the real point. It's not about uncoloured whisky with labels stating it's coloured. It's the other way round.

The problem is that in Germany there are coloured bottles sold that are NOT labelled as coloured because they are from other markets or because some producers only have a label designed for the UK market where the use of colouring doesn't have to be stated on the label.

I was referring to this (below). I'm aware the problem goes both ways, but if i was a distillery owner, the case i quote above would concern me the most.

To be on the safe side, they treat any unmarked whisky where they haven't got waterproof information about the use of E150a as being coloured and and mark it in the shop - even it it may not be coloured at all.

Alright. I took "labelled" as "printed on the label" and not as "marked in the shop". Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Pete Smoke]

Ah yes.

[hewins]

I'm joining this late in the game but I came across an article today that made me think more about this subject.

bernstein said:

That would of course be an interesting undertaking - but speaking strictly in legal terms it would be senseless. Danish and german law regulate food additives for two reasons alone:
1. protect consumers from health risks.
2. protect consumers from deception.

Regarding E150 we may neglect No.1 - it's as far as I know proofed and declared as not hazardous to health. And it may very well be the case that E 150 doesn't have any influence on the taste of the whisky at all. It still would be irrellevant...

Unfortunately, the health risks question isn't really settled. Recently, in the US, the Center for Science in the Public Interest petitioned the FDA regarding "caramel coloring" in sodas. Apparently, they feel is a carcinogen. Now, this thread has gone quite in-depth about the chemicals used and I learned a lot about the e150a and it's variants. So, I don't know if the same "caramel coloring" in coca-cola is the one that is used in whisky.

Here are two articles on the subject:

http://www.grist.org/scary-food/2011-02-16-aspartame-soda-caramel-BPA-diet-soda-kill-you

http://thelibertyguardian.com/2011/02/carmel-color-additive-in-coca-cola-may-cause-cancer-activist-call-fda-to-ban/

But, more along the lines of this thread, I would probably fall into the camp of folks who would prefer that no additive coloring is used at all. It just seems like it doesn't belong in whisky to me. It's not doing anything to the flavor, apparently. And I wouldn't consider it an integral part of "whisky making," either.

Dan

[olikli]

Unfortunately, the health risks question isn't really settled. Recently, in the US, the Center for Science in the Public Interest petitioned the FDA regarding "caramel coloring" in sodas. Apparently, they feel is a carcinogen. Now, this thread has gone quite in-depth about the chemicals used and I learned a lot about the e150a and it's variants. So, I don't know if the same "caramel coloring" in coca-cola is the one that is used in whisky.

Here are two articles on the subject:

http://www.grist.org/scary-food/2011-02-16-aspartame-soda-caramel-BPA-diet-soda-kill-you

http://thelibertyguardian.com/2011/02/carmel-color-additive-in-coca-cola-may-cause-cancer-activist-call-fda-to-ban/

Dan

Please be careful about what kind of caramel you are talking about. The cancer risk is attributed to E150d and not to E150a. We already discussed the issue in in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=278&t=4575

And please also look at the Wikipedia page about caramel colouring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramel_coloring

It's not about "E150a and its variants". E150a is a variant of caramel, just as E150b, E150c and E150d. There is no indication whatsoever that the use of E150a is a cancer hazard.

[hewins]

thanks, I see. I wasn't sure what kind is in coke and I haven't had time (yet) to read all the other posts on the forum. I stand corrected.

[C57]

There was a time when cigarettes were stated not to constitute a cancer risk.
If you wish to remain cautious, feel free to do so.

Scientific evidence changes.

(OTOH alcohol itself carries risks...)

[Pete Smoke]

I stand corrected.

Not at all. This is a case of differing opinions.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

I stand corrected.

Not at all. This is a case of differing opinions.

Case in point.

[tmu]

Just pulled together some stuff about E150.
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2011/ ... -e150.html

[Pete Smoke]

Very good article Teemu. A excellent read.

So, caramel does affect the flavour and it is not inert in whisky, but are the quantities used in Scotch whisky industry enough to affect the overall flavour significantly? No reliable scientific fact exists, but my guess is that they probably are significant. Does caramel impair the flavour? It could, but then again in some cases caramel might even improve the taste.

Personally i have no doubt this is the case. But we should remember, that even if it does improve the taste it should be illegal.

[Malt-Teaser]

Very good article Teemu. A excellent read.

So, caramel does affect the flavour and it is not inert in whisky, but are the quantities used in Scotch whisky industry enough to affect the overall flavour significantly? No reliable scientific fact exists, but my guess is that they probably are significant. Does caramel impair the flavour? It could, but then again in some cases caramel might even improve the taste.

Personally i have no doubt this is the case. But we should remember, that even if it does improve the taste it should be illegal.

An in-depth scientific article is down to guesswork

Illegal?
No, it should just be noted on the label.

[tmu]

Yep, we have to guess. There are too many uncertainties in the process; caramel manufacturers do not give exact furan-contents (fearing cancer-claims) and the bottlers do not reveal the exact amount and type of caramel used. But you knew that already... The big producers have probably researched the flavour issue with caramel, but no serious studies have been published. That is in my mind a strong scientific evidence for the effect of caramel on taste.