hogshead: ex-wine casks?

[mongo]

i attended a tasting today presented by ed kohl, the managing director of the company that imports the chieftain's line (and some others) to the u.s.. the presentation was very much geared towards absolute beginners, with some interesting and some "interesting" information passed on. in the latter category was the statement that when a single cask bottling is said to come from a hogshead it generally means this is an ex-wine hogshead, usually a white wine cask, and that the use of wine barrels is quite widespread. i thought this was odd but didn't want to interrupt to ask about it (especially as no one else there would have had the slightest interest in the matter and i didn't want to impose my geekiness on them). he seemed generally quite knowledgeable but this is not something i've ever heard of or read before. is this even close to being true? the accepted wisdom seems to be that hogshead implicitly means ex-bourbon.

[C57]

I don't think I believe this at all.
Hogsheads originally were sherry casks (most sherry casks are butts, twice the size of a hogshead).
Bourbon casks are generally 200l I thought? These are rebuilt as 250l hogsheads - I don't think borbon casks are 250l when used for bourbon? Perhaps one of or US colleagues can confirm.

So I think a hoggie can be either bourbon or sherry. Sherry is, of course, wine...

However I think the use of white wine casks is not that widespread.

[dramtastic]

From Ulf Buxruds Japanese Whisky Facts, Figures and Tastes

....the third type of cask(used for Japanese whisky) is the sherry or bourbon hogshead and its volume is approximatel 250ltrs(66 gallons). There are two types of Hogshead: sherry hogshead made from old sherry casks and bourbon casks modified by a cooper to increase volume. This is achieved by increasing an American Standard Barrels capacity with additional staves to a volume of approx 230ltrs. Staves from three bourbon barrels make 2 hogshead. A sherry hogshead may initially have been made from either European oak species or American white oak. Bourbon hogshead are alway made from american white oak.

More or less agreeing with Nick.

[The Third Dram]

From my own The Tumbler's Tasting Notes (Copyright 2010):

"Though used Port and Sherry casks, ranging in volume from 450-liter Puncheons to 500-liter or 600-liter (the latter close to 160-gallons) Butts, are prized commodities, it is the 180-liter to 200-liter (falling within the high 40 to low 50-gallon range) American Standard Barrel that forms the backbone of Scotland's supplies. Until quite recently, the Scots often disassembled ex-Bourbon or ex-Tennessee whiskey barrels at source, then shipped the staves and utilized them to fabricate larger vessels of approximately 250-liters (just over 65-gallons), often referred to as Scottish Hogsheads. Nowadays, however, the trend has swung to importing American Standard Barrels whole and leaving them as is."

So yes, reconstruction is the key factor in a hogshead (and not necessarily what the oak was in contact with previously). And yes, ex-Sherry wood (though not necessarily fabricated from European oak) could also be utilized.

[two-bit cowboy]

While I've seen some variations in definition, the info in The Third Dram's book seems to track pretty closely with how The Whisky Academy on Balvenie's site defines each size.

Mongo: I wish you'd have asked Ed your question. Nothing like getting his exact meaning while the iron's hot.

[mongo]

i asked him if this was true of chieftain's casks or generally and he said generally. i'd kind of thrown him off a little earlier, expressing surprise that a 12yo glenrothes we tasted was from a first-fill oloroso cask, as the sherry was not as prominent as i might have expected. i asked if he'd selected this cask expressly because it may have been a little less active and thus had not overpowered the glenrothes spirit. he seemed offended and insisted it was a very active first-fill cask. so i let it pass. there were some other statements that were borderline, and some marketing exaggerations of the uniqueness of the chieftain's selections. but he seemed like a good guy; he was very enthusiastic about whisky and he was pouring very generously from a very large selection (nine bottles). the rest of the small audience was not keyed into these kinds of details and it didn't seem appropriate to be disruptive.

i did spend a while chatting with him after the tasting was over, and i really enjoyed talking to him. he spoke quite frankly about his experience (he used to run signatory/edradour's u.s business) and his preferences, and i didn't want to argue with him then either or seem to try and show him up.

[Gordon_H]

I wouldn't say the use of ex-wine hogsheads is quite widespread , pretty rare would be closer (unless you're standing in a Laddie warehouse.....) .
a majority of Hogsheads are usually rebuilt Bourbon barrels with extra staves added , new ends (either knocked down if fetched in whole or just the staves added if flat pack) and new hoops , The Hogshead the SOI 2002 PC is in is ex-sherry , i may be wrong but i'm pretty sure most sherry hogsheads are american oak as well .

[mongo]

thanks all, for confirming my sense of things. he'll be back in the early spring for another round of tastings and i'll take it up with him. i wonder why he said this or if he actually believes it: he seemed quite knowledgeable about most other aspects of the production process.

[Lawrence]

We know that the majority of casks in the whisky industry come from the American bourbon industry however I think you handled it well. Sometimes it's just not worth it to put the presenter on the spot.

[Gordon_H]

Just reading back through things and spotting something on the shelf.....
LVMH / Glenmorangie have used white wine casks i.e. Sauternes ,at both their distilleries , Ardbeg has also used Burgundy casks (it went into the committee Corry) but i can't think of any others .

[MartinArmstrong]

It is probably slightly misleading to refer of most hogsheads as bourbon hogsheads, even if the staves did originally come from an American Bourbon barrel. In the past, the freshly emptied bourbon barrels may have been broken down and then rebuilt as a hoggie to hold Scotch, so they would be effectively "fresh fill bourbon hogsheads", but the cost of the barrels nowadays means that I would imagine they are nearly always used at least once for Scotch before being broken down. Then during the course of breaking the casks down, the cooper will do as Gordon says, refurbishing/refiring the staves, and/or replacing the ends so that little if any trace of the original bourbon remains. They are effectively new wood. Once this hogshead has been used for Scotch once, how then can it be called a "refill bourbon hogshead" without at least a little doubt. As far as I am concerned, hogsheads are either refill sherry, refurbished/reconstructed or simply refill hoggies (having previously held Scotch). Since in most cases there is no way to check if a cask has been refurbished, reconstructed or even built from new wood as a hoggie by some Scottish cooper, I think that it is best to assume that a cask is either refill sherry or refill Scotch.

[Gordon_H]

Hi Martin ,

It is probably slightly misleading to refer of most hogsheads as bourbon hogsheads, even if the staves did originally come from an American Bourbon barrel. In the past, the freshly emptied bourbon barrels may have been broken down and then rebuilt as a hoggie to hold Scotch, so they would be effectively "fresh fill bourbon hogsheads", but the cost of the barrels nowadays means that I would imagine they are nearly always used at least once for Scotch before being broken down. Then during the course of breaking the casks down, the cooper will do as Gordon says, refurbishing/refiring the staves, and/or replacing the ends so that little if any trace of the original bourbon remains. They are effectively new wood. Once this hogshead has been used for Scotch once, how then can it be called a "refill bourbon hogshead" without at least a little doubt. As far as I am concerned, hogsheads are either refill sherry, refurbished/reconstructed or simply refill hoggies (having previously held Scotch). Since in most cases there is no way to check if a cask has been refurbished, reconstructed or even built from new wood as a hoggie by some Scottish cooper, I think that it is best to assume that a cask is either refill sherry or refill Scotch.

I was always under the impression when Bourbon Barrels come in say in the flat pack form , the cooper would use say 5 Barrels to make 4 Hoggies (effectively fresh or 1st fill ) , then after it was used one time it would be a refill or 2nd fill . It can easily get confusing visiting different distilleries and hearing them referred to as different things , then there's the different colours that are used by some to distinguish what refill they are.......

They didn't know what refill our PC sherry hoggie was but going off the golden colour so far 2nd or 3rd fill......

[Mr Tattie Heid]

Far more pertinent, I think, Gordon, to know whether it's European or American oak.

I note the SMWS still refers to many of their offerings as coming from "refill hogsheads". I know that, as Martin says, at least some distilleries and cooperages no longer rebuild American barrels into hogsheads, at least not right away. I'm not sure why they ever did; given that you have to discard the ends and make new ones, it doesn't seem economical. In any case, it would certainly be nice if we had a better understanding of coopering practices and how they have changed over the years.

[mongo]

In any case, it would certainly be nice if we had a better understanding of coopering practices and how they have changed over the years.

hmmm i wonder where i read someone else musing about the general lack of certainty/confidence about production processes even among serious aficionados....

[The Third Dram]

Perhaps I'm off-track a tad here, but it's my gut feeling that these sorts of things tend to go in cycles.

Take the wine industry as a parallel example. Cask size and provenance has, over the last few decades, tended to swing toward the 'smaller and newer is better' extreme. So for Barolo and Barbaresco, for example, many producers (Gaja being the most notable) have abandoned long maturation periods in traditionally large, well-used barrels and opted for shorter ageing timelines in top quality, fresh (often French) oak casks. Yet this is not the end of the story. And some winemakers are now 'rediscovering' that those traditional ways offered a gentler, less oak-intrusive method for rounding off the tannic bite of the young wines.

I see a similar shift currently taking place within the Scotch whisky industry. This shift began with the cask finishing concept, and has continued with the utilization of smaller oak casks. Laphroaig Quarter Cask probably represents the most commonly known example of the 'smaller and newer is better' viewpoint. Let's face it... It is easier to move smaller barrels around. And the shorter the requisite maturation time to bring a whisky to market, the better it may well be for the distillery and/or parent company in a monetary sense.

But is 'smaller and newer' always better? Perhaps there is, as yet, a place within the whisky industry for longer maturation periods in larger casks. I'm reasonably certain this is so, especially given the whisky marketing penchant for offering unique products.

Just don't ask me to move a 600-litre butt!

[Mr Tattie Heid]

I've seen some 600-litre butts moving themselves around various English towns this past week. Anyway, I think you're onto something, TTD.

[C57]

I've seen some 600-litre butts moving themselves around various English towns this past week. Anyway, I think you're onto something, TTD.

I didn't realise you'd been to Harlow, TH

[Gordon_H]

I've seen some 600-litre butts moving themselves around various English towns this past week. Anyway, I think you're onto something, TTD.

Gord(a) Blimey !

[Johnny Murgatroyd]

I suspect the poor fellow was confused between "wine cask" (which includes sherry) and "white oak casks". That's all I can think of

[Willie JJ]

I think you handled it well. Sometimes it's just not worth it to put the presenter on the spot.

I agree. The presenter was clearly talking rubbish, but we all have our moments.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

I think you handled it well. Sometimes it's just not worth it to put the presenter on the spot.

I agree. The presenter was clearly talking rubbish, but we all have our moments.

Oh, not me, I never talk rubbish.



Stop that!

[The Third Dram]

Just remember... One man's 'rubbish' is a racoon's 'gold mine'. Isn't nature (not necessarily human) wonderful?

[C57]

I've seen some 600-litre butts moving themselves around various English towns this past week. Anyway, I think you're onto something, TTD.

Gord(a) Blimey !

Talking of which, I see they are currently putting a Glen Scotia into all sorts of multi-buy parcels at SMWS. Why - because it's one of the Sherry Gorda experiments, I assume. Probably was a perfectly good Scotia till it got in there.

[Gordon_H]

Talking of which, I see they are currently putting a Glen Scotia into all sorts of multi-buy parcels at SMWS. Why - because it's one of the Sherry Gorda experiments, I assume. Probably was a perfectly good Scotia till it got in there.

Are there still some of them being Bottled ?
When i was a member (two weeks ago....) i wouldn't have touched the sherried parcels for fear of a Sulphured one so i would have been well hacked off if one of the Gorda casks had been included !
They were marked as a failed experiment not long after the first one was released , the Ardnore one still gives me nightmares.....

[solera]

Talking of which, I see they are currently putting a Glen Scotia into all sorts of multi-buy parcels at SMWS. Why - because it's one of the Sherry Gorda experiments, I assume. Probably was a perfectly good Scotia till it got in there.

Are there still some of them being Bottled ?
When i was a member (two weeks ago....) i wouldn't have touched the sherried parcels for fear of a Sulphured one so i would have been well hacked off if one of the Gorda casks had been included !
They were marked as a failed experiment not long after the first one was released , the Ardnore one still gives me nightmares.....

Last SMWS tasting I went to in Leeds back in the Spring I had the worst most sulphur tainted whisky I've ever had the misfortune to taste - you've guessed it - a Glen Scotia from a Sherry Gorda. Utterly foul and undrinkable - but incredibly then bought by 3 others at the same tasting!