'Bluescum'-gate

[The Craw]

Due to some posts, now deleted, on this thread over the past 48 hours........
(Football and other sports) viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18&start=1125
.... I have decided that I no longer wish to be a part of this forum.

The posts in question, which were posted and have now been deleted by a forum administrator, referred to some of my friends and family as being 'scum'. I asked for the individual to be banned and for admin to make an apology on behalf of the errant individual, which has not been forthcoming.

As a result I will no longer take part in this forum with immediate effect. This is a shame as I was one of the original band who migrated here after the dark days of the WM forum (where, ironically, similar admin shenanigans took place!) and moreover as I took the lead shareholding in a forum cask purchase on behalf of several members here (which may well prove a communication issue going forward).

I'm sorry to have to resort to this action but I will not tolerate anyone referring to my friends/family as 'scum' in such an obtuse and public manner. Goodbye all

[olikli]

This was the first time I ever klicked on the 'Football (and Other Sports)' thread, I did so because of this post, my interest for football is next to nothing, and it is even smaller for British football.

You may have noticed that I had kept pretty quiet for a while. Apart from time constraints this was also because quite a few discussions just got out of control. I didn't feel personally offended by anyone, but I simply felt the fun was gone.

Now I that I have decided to give it another try, it feels like nothing has changed. The same ole Kindergarten as always. Kinda makes me feel at home actually... strange, innit? No I won't leave, but I may just scratch my head at times...

[Mr Tattie Heid]

[orange_barnet]

I haven't been visiting the sports thread until very recently, as it doesn't hold much interest for me. However I think one of the many good things about this forum is the diversity of topics here. Actually, there are a lot of good things about this forum which I suppose might be easy to forget sometimes. The list of positives in my mind is a long one, but here are a few of them: the obvious enthusiasm with which members submit their posts and exchange comments with each other; the sharing and exchange of knowledge and information; the good-humoured and good-natured jokes; the interesting stories that people tell; and the sheer imagination and entertainment value of many of the posts. Yes, even some of the 'bickering' has a certain entertainment value too - people sometimes enjoy taking part in a good argument or observing one. There is a lot of creativity on this forum and I've also noticed a lot of support and goodwill between members. Clearly though, the central interest of the forum, which brings members to it, is whisky - we all enjoy this in common.

I have read the more recent posts on the sports thread, and I can't pretend to understand the 'current situation'. But what I can say is that I think it's a shame when a thread 'deteriorates' to the point where individuals who have felt offended, angered, or misjudged are unable to reconcile their differences. I also think it is a shame when a member (irrespective of whether they have been a part of the forum for a long or short time, although one must perhaps assume that the decision to leave in the case of the former is not taken lightly) decides to announce their departure.

In any 'gathering' or 'community' of people there are bound to be differences and arguments, and insults and apologies may happen. It may take some time for heated arguments to subside, and individuals may naturally wish to give each other a wide berth. There is a private messaging facility on this forum which I'm sure also plays a part in addressing problems as well as being used for happier purposes.

I hope noone thinks I'm 'sticking my oar' into a situation with which I have had no involvement; this post is simply to say that I'm disappointed to see (if from a periphery) a series of negative events unfold. Although I joined this forum only last summer I've been made to feel very welcome and have enjoyed posting and reading others' posts. This is why I wanted to say what I am saying. I'd like to think that the generous and kind nature that I relate to my own overall experience of being here can prevail and that differences can be graciously overcome.

I apologise for this long-ish post, but I just wanted to say what I thought.

To "The Craw" - I hope you will make a guest visit to the forum and read this thread. I have sent you a PM - I hope you will be able to find a way to read it.

[C57]

Wise Words Wanda

[John Barleycorn]

I find it appalling that a member/administrator of this forum is allowed to call others ‘scum’ based on their loathing of a particular football team. This is the type of behaviour to be found in the primary school playground, it is also the type of attitude that the Scottish Government is trying to stamp out of Scottish Football. Too those who may not be aware of Scotland’s religious intolerance, on both sides, you may think this a trifling matter, one of simple name calling but to those who live with this situation on a daily basis it is not and to have others from the other side of the globe referring to them, whether directly or indirectly, as ‘blue scum’ or any other derogatory term and then to be told ‘to get over it’ is both hurtful and unacceptable.

I hope that a full apologue, as a separate post, is forthcoming and their term as administrator is found to be untenable.

[Nick Brown]

I have apologised and will do so again. I should not have used the term I did. I didn’t realise it would generate the strength of feeling that it did – it is used by others, variously, to refer to Carlton FC, Chelsea and Birmingham City.

I did not mean it to apply to all supporters of Rangers FC – but rather to a particular type of supporter who uses the football club to define themselves and their bigotry – the kind who carries the Linfield/Rangers/Chelsea card despite seldom attending football matches and define themselves as “bluenose”. The point I was making was that Rangers’ debts are quite modest if all those who use Rangers as a symbol of their loyalism were to have a whip. It was meant as throwaway banter. That’s what I have experienced on football terraces myself – at least until my own club folded due to financial problems. I’ve been there, got the t-shirt.

As soon as I was made aware of the offence I had caused, I took down all references to the term and offered an unqualified apology. It is with some bemusement, then, that I see the people who were so offended by the term have objected to its deletion and have reposted it. Each to their own.

I know some people object on principle to any post being deleted. I agree that it’s not ideal but sometimes it is necessary for the greater good – particularly for avoiding causing people offence. And in this case, the thread was clearly causing offence.

Ultimately, this whole stoush is about football. Despite what Bill Shankly once said, football is not the most important thing in the world, especially not on a whisky forum. I have no particular axe to grind and really have nothing against fans of any football club.

I was, am, and will continue to be sorry for the genuine offence I have caused.

[mongo]

i didn't see the posts that gave offense. but nick's most recent seems like it should be sufficient apology.

administrators are human too, and no less apt than regular members to have lapses of judgement.

[Jimmy321]

OK Nick Brown, as a gesture of goodwill and to keep the spirit of the forum alive (and to keep others happy) are you willing to resign as a moderator of the forum as there are more moderators than whats needed IMO, and some people who are now more involved day to day may decide to stay if you do so!

I personally have nothing against you but I do see you stepping across the line on a number of occasions by deleting posts and locking threads.

Think of it as an even balance, you stay without Mod privileges and active posters are happy.

[mongo]

ooh! ooh! can i make demands too?!!

[Pete Smoke]

Aren't the two Nicks our only active mods. By 'active' i mean 'here on a regular basis'. Maybe the whole moderator thing needs an overhaul anyway.

[MacDeffe]

Hey CrAW

Lets not have one idiot let you abandon this forum, there's about 1000 nice people here

I am totally agreeing with you, but I wont take the same actions as you. I will, keep telling my own true opinions instead until I get kicked

Steffen

[mongo]

Hey CrAW

Lets not have one idiot let you abandon this forum, there's about 1000 nice people here

do you not see any irony here? you're all upset because a person insulted a general group. and now here you are throwing insults around and using the opportunity to grind your axe. calm down. the world hasn't ended or come close to doing so.

[Pudge72]

Extremely well stated sentiments o_b! I would plagerise every word you wrote, if I could.

Thank you to John Barleycorn, from someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is ignorant on the subject, for alluding to the dynamics of religion as it pertains to the situation. I have only been vaguely aware of the deeper, non-sporting, aspects of the Celtic vs. Rangers rivalry. This helps to explain the depth of offense felt by some over the terminology that had been used.

A somewhat similar (moreso several decades ago, when both religious and cultural tensions were higher) depth of rivalry occurs in hockey in Canada between supporters of the Toronto Maple Leafs (English speaking, Protestant/non-Catholic, with the province of Ontario perceived as economically dominant) and the Montreal Canadiens (French speaking, Catholic, with the province of Quebec perceived as economically dependent).

The lines have blurred over the years, partly due to the level of suck that both teams have acheived since 1979 (only two Stanley Cup victories, both by Montreal). While the divide was much more intense in the era of six hockey teams (1967 and earlier), the issues were highlighted to some extent by the furor caused when the Canadiens named an English-only speaker as their interim head coach in December, 2011.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

do you not see any irony here? you're all upset because a person insulted a general group. and now here you are throwing insults around and using the opportunity to grind your axe. calm down. the world hasn't ended or come close to doing so.

What we have here, mongo, on the one hand, is someone who made a very bad miscalculation about the way in which his comments would be received. That is an error of judgment, for which he has apologized quite readily. On the other hand, we have a small number of people who have deliberately mischaracterized his intent and motives, and impugned his character. That is a slander, for which of course they will never apologize.

[Pete Smoke]

Thank you to John Barleycorn, from someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is ignorant on the subject, for alluding to the dynamics of religion as it pertains to the situation.

Religion doesn't 'pertain' to this situation one bit. I don't see why religion should be mentioned at all. I don't see any religious comments to allusions to them. This whole issue has gone from silly to farce.

[mongo]

do you not see any irony here? you're all upset because a person insulted a general group. and now here you are throwing insults around and using the opportunity to grind your axe. calm down. the world hasn't ended or come close to doing so.

What we have here, mongo, on the one hand, is someone who made a very bad miscalculation about the way in which his comments would be received. That is an error of judgment, for which he has apologized quite readily. On the other hand, we have a small number of people who have deliberately mischaracterized his intent and motives, and impugned his character. That is a slander, for which of course they will never apologize.

i missed all the controversial posts. but i have to say it would be more than a little disingenuous, not to say dishonest for the craw to claim that nick b. referred to his "friends and family" as scum if what he in fact did was make a generalization about rangers fans as a whole.

a few deep breaths and a couple of days of distance should put all this in perspective.

[Pudge72]

Thank you to John Barleycorn, from someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is ignorant on the subject, for alluding to the dynamics of religion as it pertains to the situation.

Religion doesn't 'pertain' to this situation one bit. I don't see why religion should be mentioned at all. I don't see any religious comments to allusions to them. This whole issue has gone from silly to farce.

My mentioning of religion was strictly in reference to this portion of John Barleycorn's post:

"...Too those who may not be aware of Scotland’s religious intolerance, on both sides, you may think this a trifling matter, one of simple name calling but to those who live with this situation on a daily basis it is not..."

If I have misconstrued the meaning/intent of his statements, I do apologize. My general point was that the nature of the dispute is rooted in dynamics that go beyond that of a simple sports rivalry.

[olikli]

Thank you to John Barleycorn, from someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is ignorant on the subject, for alluding to the dynamics of religion as it pertains to the situation.

Religion doesn't 'pertain' to this situation one bit. I don't see why religion should be mentioned at all. I don't see any religious comments to allusions to them. This whole issue has gone from silly to farce.

My mentioning of religion was strictly in reference to this portion of John Barleycorn's post:

"...Too those who may not be aware of Scotland’s religious intolerance, on both sides, you may think this a trifling matter, one of simple name calling but to those who live with this situation on a daily basis it is not..."

If I have misconstrued the meaning/intent of his statements, I do apologize. My general point was that the nature of the dispute is rooted in dynamics that go beyond that of a simple sports rivalry.

History is is full of examples of religious differences gone crazy, and in the end you ask yourself what's religion got to do with what happened.

[MacDeffe]

What we have here, mongo, on the one hand, is someone who made a very bad miscalculation about the way in which his comments would be received. That is an error of judgment, for which he has apologized quite readily. On the other hand, we have a small number of people who have deliberately mischaracterized his intent and motives, and impugned his character. That is a slander, for which of course they will never apologize.

You aren't helping Mr. TH. I see this post as very insulting and also very SLANDER. Always nice when the "victims" are suddenly made the villains. How distasteful. I will, admit that your post made my stomach turn upside - down...

Well, I think this will result in 1 if not more leaving this forum by the way this has evolved, so sad

Steffen

[Pudge72]

Religion doesn't 'pertain' to this situation one bit. I don't see why religion should be mentioned at all. I don't see any religious comments to allusions to them. This whole issue has gone from silly to farce.

My mentioning of religion was strictly in reference to this portion of John Barleycorn's post:

"...Too those who may not be aware of Scotland’s religious intolerance, on both sides, you may think this a trifling matter, one of simple name calling but to those who live with this situation on a daily basis it is not..."

If I have misconstrued the meaning/intent of his statements, I do apologize. My general point was that the nature of the dispute is rooted in dynamics that go beyond that of a simple sports rivalry.

History is is full of examples of religious differences gone crazy, and in the end you ask yourself what's religion got to do with what happened.

Alas quite true, and well stated 'olikli'.

[olikli]

What we have here, mongo, on the one hand, is someone who made a very bad miscalculation about the way in which his comments would be received. That is an error of judgment, for which he has apologized quite readily. On the other hand, we have a small number of people who have deliberately mischaracterized his intent and motives, and impugned his character. That is a slander, for which of course they will never apologize.

You aren't helping Mr. TH. I see this post as very insulting and also very SLANDER. Always nice when the "victims" are suddenly made the villains. How distasteful. I will, admit that your post made my stomach turn upside - down...

Well, I think this will result in 1 if not more leaving this forum by the way this has evolved, so sad

Steffen

If there is one thing I have learned from countless flame wars since the good old days of Usenet it's that the sensitivity of people to 'difficult' topics is easily underestimated. Not everybody's skin has a lotus effect.

[Aidan]

I'm not in charge here, but maybe everyone should just forget about it and move on. Or at least just move on. I don't think Nick was calling any fan in particular that word and he has clarified that and apologised. All clubs have good fans and bad fans.

[Mr Tattie Heid]

You aren't helping Mr. TH. I see this post as very insulting and also very SLANDER. Always nice when the "victims" are suddenly made the villains. How distasteful. I will, admit that your post made my stomach turn upside - down...

I'm sorry, Steffen, but I think I've accurately described the behavior of the participants. One recognized causing offense, admitted error, and apologized. The other continues to dramatize its victimhood (the equivalent of diving) in order to justify its continued attacks. You tell me who is being done real harm.

[Mark C]

Firstly I apologise for not being around much at the moment and have completely missed this whole debacle.

I will look into this and take what action I deem appropriate. In the meantime I would like everyone to take some time to think about what they are posting on the forum and whether it might be considered offensive before pressing that Submit button. There have been a few things lately where someone has been offended by what others have said and I hope this is not going to continue. Remember, if you wouldn't say it to a person's face then don't type it online either!