LCBO Bourbons

[Zunak]

I should have posted my initial querry into borbons here, but unfortunately did not remember that this posting existed (should have looked before leaping). Anyway I am cutting and pasting some of the comments from the "LCBO New Products" thread so as not to clutter it up.

Smithford wrote" Sorry, I'm late to answer this, but I thought it might still be worthwhile. I'm going to buck the trend a little. I know there's a lot of love for Bookers here (and elsewhere). I think it's good, but not as great as some others think. It's price to proof ratio is pretty good, but once you bring it down to a drinkable proof, it becomes much less interesting".

DBK wrote "As Pudge says, I like the stuff; .... Admittedly, though, you need to like the standard Beam low-rye bourbon profile (Jim Beam, Knob Creek, Baker's) to enjoy Booker's. I've never had a taste of Booker's that I haven't liked—it's my favourite Beam whiskey—but it's definitely not for everyone. Do not compare it to the William Larue Weller".

My initial question was how does the Bookers stand up against the High End WLW, Pappy15, PHC 4th. It seems the answer form these two fine gentlemen, whos opinions I greatly respect in this particular genre, is it doesn't quite measure up.

This will be really difficult to say without sounding snobbish so please read it factually, not emotionally.
I am switching my focus when purchasing whisy. I have many bottles and do not "need" any more. I have tried all of the whisky's that I care to from respective distilleries and regions and now know what I like and where my focus lies. I am now concentrating on the very best whisky's I can afford and no longer looking at "value offerings" or bulk (instead of 3 I'll buy 1 for the same price). As far as Scotch goes I know what I want and where my focus will be. I must admit, however, that I am a novice when it comes to Bourbon. Hence the reason for this lengthy post (sorry guys). Please post your favourite, cost no object, Bourbons and a little description about why they are your favourites, also availability and pricing in the US if you can. Thanks in advance guys.

[portwood]

zunak, check your messages ...

[Smithford]

I am a novice when it comes to Bourbon.

You are too humble. From what I can tell, you know very well what you like. Anyway, it's much easier to become a Bourbon expert, since there is only a small fraction of the number of Bourbons available versus Malts.

Please post your favourite, cost no object, Bourbons and a little description about why they are your favourites

This seems like an easy question. But our answers may be of no value to you. My choices (for example) are going to be more rye-heavy than you like. But since you asked ...

LCBO available:
1. Rittenhouse BIB rye. Delicious, with great weight (abv, flavour concentration). The most bourbony rye available. Great balance between corn sweetness and rye spice. I would buy this at twice the price (hopefully nobody from the LCBO is reading).
2. Van Winkle 12 year old Lot B. So few wheaters available here. This is the best one by a mile. Soft, luxurious, rich, like drinking candy. It's all gone for now, but it does seem to show up from time to time.
3. Elijah Craig 12. Sweet and rich, with just the right amount of wood.
Honourable mention: George Dickel # 12. I'm just getting to know this one, but so far, so good. It's got a quirky character, which I may tire of in time. But for now I can't get enough.

non-LCBO:
1. Van Winke Family Reserve Rye. Probably the best American Whiskey I've ever tasted. Soft, round, lush, perfectly balanced, and maddeningly difficult to buy (especially for a Canadian).
2. Old Potrero 18th C style Rye. Like nothing else I've ever tasted. Unabashed rye spiciness, full of character. Every glass delivers something new. This is a polarizing whiskey though. More people hate it than love it.
3. Wild Turkey Rare Breed. Rich, dessert like - stewed fruit and ice cream over pecan pie. Decadent.
Honourable mention: Pappy Van Winkle (any of them). You really can't go wrong with Pappy.
I also like: Elijah Craig 18, Sazerac 18 y/o rye, Vintage Rye. While in Scotland last December, I tried a Four Roses Single Barrel which blew me away. It was an older bottle, only available in the European market. I doubt I'll ever see that specific bottle again. And being a single barrel, I may very well never find another one quite like it. But I'll be trying every 4RSB I see from now on, just in case.

There you have it. The important thing to remember with American Whiskey is that the quality/price graph is not a straight line. There are many great bourbons in the under US$40 range. And with your noted preference for wheated bourbon, I'd urge you to try the Wellers that dbk and I suggested in the other thread. Wouldn't it just be the greatest thing if your all-time favourite bourbon was $25 a bottle?

[dbk]

I am loving this thread right now!

I am a novice when it comes to Bourbon.

You are too humble. From what I can tell, you know very well what you like. Anyway, it's much easier to become a Bourbon expert, since there is only a small fraction of the number of Bourbons available versus Malts.

Absolutely right on both points.

Wouldn't it just be the greatest thing if your all-time favourite bourbon was $25 a bottle?

Not only great, but feasible, too!

My LCBO list, with Zunak in mind (you were always on my miiiiiiiiind...):

Van Winkle 12 year-old "Lot B" (Smithford: check; Zunak: check)
Eagle Rare (a softer, sweeter version of Buffalo Trace)
Blanton's Original Single Barrel (not the Special Reserve)
Sazerac Rye
Four Roses Small Batch

Non-LCBO:

Pappy Van Winkle 15 year-old
Some of the Four Roses Single Barrels (one from the Party Source in KY blew my mind)
Colonel E. H. Taylor, Jr. Old Fashion Sour Mash (i.e. the first release)
Parker's Heritage Collection 4th Edition (wheated)
George T. Stagg, William Larue Weller, Sazerac 18 year-old, & Thomas H. Handy Sazerac

If you hadn't noticed, I'm a BT man through and through. Buffalo Trace is not just my favourite American distillery, it's my favourite distillery. Period. I enjoy many of the others Smithford listed (e.g., Elijah Craig, Rittenhouse BIB, Wild Turkey Rare Breed), but not to the same degree. I'm having a love affair with BT whiskies, and I don't care who knows it!


That said, the best advice I can give (and I think I'm echoing Smithford here) is this: the only way you'll really know is to taste a bunch and sort it out for yourself. And you know I'm always happy to help you out in that regard, right Zunak?

[Zunak]

I am loving this thread right now!


My LCBO list, with Zunak in mind (you were always on my miiiiiiiiind...):

Van Winkle 12 year-old "Lot B" (Smithford: check; Zunak: check)
Eagle Rare (a softer, sweeter version of Buffalo Trace)
Blanton's Original Single Barrel (not the Special Reserve)
Sazerac Rye
Four Roses Small Batch

Non-LCBO:

Pappy Van Winkle 15 year-old
Some of the Four Roses Single Barrels (one from the Party Source in KY blew my mind)
Colonel E. H. Taylor, Jr. Old Fashion Sour Mash (i.e. the first release)
Parker's Heritage Collection 4th Edition (wheated)
George T. Stagg, William Larue Weller, Sazerac 18 year-old, & Thomas H. Handy Sazerac

If you hadn't noticed, I'm a BT man through and through. Buffalo Trace is not just my favourite American distillery, it's my favourite distillery. Period. I enjoy many of the others Smithford listed (e.g., Elijah Craig, Rittenhouse BIB, Wild Turkey Rare Breed), but not to the same degree. I'm having a love affair with BT whiskies, and I don't care who knows it!


That said, the best advice I can give (and I think I'm echoing Smithford here) is this: the only way you'll really know is to taste a bunch and sort it out for yourself. And you know I'm always happy to help you out in that regard, right Zunak?

I too am loving this thread dbk.
I do not drink a lot of Bourbon and when I have one I want it to be something really special so I am trying to get the most unusal and spectacular whisky's I can find. Okay guys heres the list so far of what I have.
Thomas H Handy ..... Haven't tried it yet
William Larue Weller (2)......Love it
Parkers Heritage Collection 4th (2)......Love it more
Pappy Van Winkle 15.....Not tried yet
Elijah Craig 12....Not impressed, Good... but no "WOW". Everyday drink not the spectacular I'm after.
Rittenhouse Rye BIB... Very good and a great bargain.
Buffalo Trace....This is my go to cheap bourbon. Personally I prefer it to the EC12

Hit list/wish list ( I'm not really a rye fan but I will trust your fine judgement DBK and Smithford)
Van Winkle Family Reserve
Jeffersons Presidential Release (If I can find one)
George T Stagg (again missed out)
E H Taylor
Did I miss any guys? Please add on anything you feel is appropriate.

[Card Player]

I have noticed the most recent release of BT to lcbo was a better batch (imo) than the previous year. Blanton's SB is great (more rye in the mash than BT), but the recent BT batch has a similar profile notes to Blanton's. BT may be less sweet...but I like these two pretty close to equal (depending on the mood im in).

[marriedmalt]

So... I will be the first to admit that I am a complete rookie in regards to bourbon (well, whisky in general, but ESPECIALLY bourbon). Over the past couple of years I have found myself naturally drawn to scotch whisky, and while I used to be a big fan of Canadian (Rye) whisky, I now find it too sweet, and seem to prefer the maltiness of scotch. However, after reading several different threads in the Maple Leaf Lounge, and hearing all the wonderful flavor sensations that bourbon has to offer, I decided to give it a try. I decided to go with a bourbon that was well regarded, and seemed to be liked by many different people (including Ralphy). I chose to start with Elijah Craig 12 Y/O. Well, at the risk of being unpopular, while I did find certain flavors that were likeable, I found it to be almost too bitter for human consumption. Even after adding a substantial amount of water, I still found it to posses a bitterness that would not go away. I gave it my best and tried it on several different occasions, but even after a full bottle (consumed over 1 1/2 months or so), I can honestly say that I never got past the bitterness, and that, for me is a deal breaker. My question is, is this bitterness a common quality of bourbons, or only to certain ones? I am not particularly shy to strong flavors, as Talisker has become one of my favorite single malts, however, bitterness is not a taste sensation that I am willing to conform to.
Since Elijah Craig, I have not tried any other bourbons, however upon reading this forum, I can't help fell like I am missing out at the same time as bourbon seems to be extremely popular amongst many of you. So.... What else should I try, or, could it be a case that I simply don't like bourbon? ( I do realize that this may be a premature statement after only trying one bottle )

MM

[Smithford]

I found it to be almost too bitter for human consumption.

2 things:

First - that can happen with Elijah Craig. It is prone to bad batches, and even off-bottles. I often forget to add that disclaimer when I recommend it. When it's good, it's great. But sometimes it's off. When people find it off, they sometimes report a "metallic" taste. Is that how you would describe your bottle?

Second - Maybe your bottle wasn't off, but perhaps there was too much wood for you. While 12 years of age is entering the sweet spot for single malts, it's pretty old for bourbon, some would say over the hill. Bourbon ages a lot faster than Scotch. Wood will dominate at much younger ages. It's entirely possible that your palate just doesn't agree with older bourbons.

Typical bourbon character is caramel, vanilla sweet, with any bitterness way in the background - think cornbread with burnt corners, or a toasted marshmallow. If you want to experiment some more and avoid any bitterness, try something younger which won't have as much wood influence. Younger bourbons at the LCBO include Buffalo Trace, Jim Beam, Bulleit, Four Roses and Maker's Mark.

At the moment, you can get Maker's Mark in half-bottles for under $20. That will allow you to try another bourbon without breaking the bank. I'd also give George Dickel #12 a whirl. There's nothing at all bitter about that one - it has an almost "Juicy Fruit" sweetness to it. It's not your typical bourbon, but it's worth a try.

[marriedmalt]

Thanks man, I don't remember the bitterness having a metallic quality to it, so maybe it is just too much oak for my liking. I'll give some of the others you mentioned a shot, and go from there.

Thanks again,

MM

[dbk]

I don't think you're alone, MM. I certainly don't find the astringency of Elijah Craig to be awful, but it's certainly more than I enjoy. I'm not a huge fan of Heaven Hill distillates in general (Parker's Heritage Collection wheater notwithstanding).

Smithford summed things up nicely, as usual. I might suggest you try out Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, or Four Roses Small Batch when you're ready to get back on the horse. None would be described as "too woody" (even though Eagle Rare is a 10 year-old) or harshly bitter/astringent, and all have some nice sweetness and complexity to them. Eagle Rare is the bourbon that got me in to bourbon.

[Zunak]

I don't think you're alone, MM. I certainly don't find the astringency of Elijah Craig to be awful, but it's certainly more than I enjoy. I'm not a huge fan of Heaven Hill distillates in general (Parker's Heritage Collection wheater notwithstanding).

Smithford summed things up nicely, as usual. I might suggest you try out Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, or Four Roses Small Batch when you're ready to get back on the horse. None would be described as "too woody" (even though Eagle Rare is a 10 year-old) or harshly bitter/astringent, and all have some nice sweetness and complexity to them. Eagle Rare is the bourbon that got me in to bourbon.

Interesting points on bitterness. I normally do not water anything I drink, Scotch or Bourbon. As an experiment, mainly due to it's high proof, I added water to the Parkers that I have been enjoying so much as of late. I found a very strong bitter note to emerge from a whisky that I absolutely love full strength (it's currently in my top 5).

[marriedmalt]

Thanks for the advice folks, it's much appreciated. My whisky budget for the month is maxed out, so i'll have to wait till April before I give it a go.

MM

[Zunak]

So... I will be the first to admit that I am a complete rookie in regards to bourbon (well, whisky in general, but ESPECIALLY bourbon). Over the past couple of years I have found myself naturally drawn to scotch whisky, and while I used to be a big fan of Canadian (Rye) whisky, I now find it too sweet, and seem to prefer the maltiness of scotch. However, after reading several different threads in the Maple Leaf Lounge, and hearing all the wonderful flavor sensations that bourbon has to offer, I decided to give it a try. I decided to go with a bourbon that was well regarded, and seemed to be liked by many different people (including Ralphy). I chose to start with Elijah Craig 12 Y/O. Well, at the risk of being unpopular, while I did find certain flavors that were likeable, I found it to be almost too bitter for human consumption. Even after adding a substantial amount of water, I still found it to posses a bitterness that would not go away. I gave it my best and tried it on several different occasions, but even after a full bottle (consumed over 1 1/2 months or so), I can honestly say that I never got past the bitterness, and that, for me is a deal breaker. My question is, is this bitterness a common quality of bourbons, or only to certain ones? I am not particularly shy to strong flavors, as Talisker has become one of my favorite single malts, however, bitterness is not a taste sensation that I am willing to conform to.
Since Elijah Craig, I have not tried any other bourbons, however upon reading this forum, I can't help fell like I am missing out at the same time as bourbon seems to be extremely popular amongst many of you. So.... What else should I try, or, could it be a case that I simply don't like bourbon? ( I do realize that this may be a premature statement after only trying one bottle )

MM

I found your experience to be quite thought provoking. So much so that I had a taste of the EC12 that I have last night and found a similar bitterness (for lack of a better word). This is a bottle that I purchsed quite some time ago and have not returned to it for some particular reason. That does happen to me quite often. I must subconsciously make some mental note which causes me to ignore particular bottles that I personally find lackluster. I do it with Scotch also. I had a couple of LCBO gift cards left over from my birthday so I purchased a Four Roses Small Batch today. I'm opening it tonight and tasting it against the EC12. Two comparitively priced LCBO Bourbon offerings. I'll post my findings here for what it's worth. I'm looking forward to seeing the differences in profiles between these two.

[marriedmalt]

So... I will be the first to admit that I am a complete rookie in regards to bourbon (well, whisky in general, but ESPECIALLY bourbon). Over the past couple of years I have found myself naturally drawn to scotch whisky, and while I used to be a big fan of Canadian (Rye) whisky, I now find it too sweet, and seem to prefer the maltiness of scotch. However, after reading several different threads in the Maple Leaf Lounge, and hearing all the wonderful flavor sensations that bourbon has to offer, I decided to give it a try. I decided to go with a bourbon that was well regarded, and seemed to be liked by many different people (including Ralphy). I chose to start with Elijah Craig 12 Y/O. Well, at the risk of being unpopular, while I did find certain flavors that were likeable, I found it to be almost too bitter for human consumption. Even after adding a substantial amount of water, I still found it to posses a bitterness that would not go away. I gave it my best and tried it on several different occasions, but even after a full bottle (consumed over 1 1/2 months or so), I can honestly say that I never got past the bitterness, and that, for me is a deal breaker. My question is, is this bitterness a common quality of bourbons, or only to certain ones? I am not particularly shy to strong flavors, as Talisker has become one of my favorite single malts, however, bitterness is not a taste sensation that I am willing to conform to.
Since Elijah Craig, I have not tried any other bourbons, however upon reading this forum, I can't help fell like I am missing out at the same time as bourbon seems to be extremely popular amongst many of you. So.... What else should I try, or, could it be a case that I simply don't like bourbon? ( I do realize that this may be a premature statement after only trying one bottle )

MM

I found your experience to be quite thought provoking. So much so that I had a taste of the EC12 that I have last night and found a similar bitterness (for lack of a better word). This is a bottle that I purchsed quite some time ago and have not returned to it for some particular reason. That does happen to me quite often. I must subconsciously make some mental note which causes me to ignore particular bottles that I personally find lackluster. I do it with Scotch also. I had a couple of LCBO gift cards left over from my birthday so I purchased a Four Roses Small Batch today. I'm opening it tonight and tasting it against the EC12. Two comparitively priced LCBO Bourbon offerings. I'll post my findings here for what it's worth. I'm looking forward to seeing the differences in profiles between these two.

I'm glad my experience has caused some intrigue among some of you! Zunak, for your comparison, my bottle of EC (I knew I must have held on to that bottle for some good reason) is numbered 3, 77, 42, 09. Four Roses small batch was also the bottle that I was leaning towards purchasing in April. As to your earlier comment about how adding water to your bottle of Parker's added some bitterness, I found the EC 12 y/o to posses that quality from the beginning, hence the reason I added water to see if that would help to minimize it (which it did not).

Cheers,

MM

[dbk]

If anything, I find the addition of water often increases the astringency of an already astringent whisky.

[Zunak]

As promised I did a head to head comparison between Elijah Craig 12yo and Four Roses Small Batch. My personal short notes are as follows.
Four Roses SB.
Nose: Demerara sugar and Vanilla
Mouth: rich rounded sugary delivery with a slight oiliness
Finish: Drying finish fairly long

Elijah Craig 12
N: Cedar, Citrus, somewhat lighter as opposed to the richer Four Roses.
M: big mouth filling initially with slightly more complexity than the FR, quickly becomes strident and somewhat hot.
F: Medium to long with a bitter undertone
Personally for the same money I would take the Four Roses, but neither of these really impressed me any more than the standard Buffalo Trace offering. They are both quite drinkable but have nowhere near the complexity I'm looking for. I finished the night (and myself) with aWLW followed by the Parker 10 wheated which made it all worthwhile.

[Megawatt]

I found Elijah Craig 12 to be nice and easy-drinking for the strength. Quite mellow and rounded in character. I didn't notice any distracting bitterness. It wasn't the best bourbon I've had but was great for the money.

[Zunak]

I found Elijah Craig 12 to be nice and easy-drinking for the strength. Quite mellow and rounded in character. I didn't notice any distracting bitterness. It wasn't the best bourbon I've had but was great for the money.

Smithford made some interesting observations regarding batch differences earlier on in this thread which may explain this.

[Zunak]

Picked up an Eagle Rare today and at the same time my friend purchased an Old Forester Signature and a Dickel. We cracked the Old Forester and I was pleasantly surprised, just as cherry nosed as I remember from many years ago and very smooth sweet and quite enjoyable. The Dickel however I found to have a prominent sour smell as well as a sourness on the taste quite contrary to the Forester. I'll be getting a Forester for myself very soon. I preferred my initial small sample tasting of it to both the EC12 and the Four Roses small batch.

[Card Player]

Picked up an Eagle Rare today and at the same time my friend purchased an Old Forester Signature and a Dickel. We cracked the Old Forester and I was pleasantly surprised, just as cherry nosed as I remember from many years ago and very smooth sweet and quite enjoyable. The Dickel however I found to have a prominent sour smell as well as a sourness on the taste quite contrary to the Forester. I'll be getting a Forester for myself very soon. I preferred my initial small sample tasting of it to both the EC12 and the Four Roses small batch.

Dickel...sour?! I don't think I ever seen those two words used in the same sentence. Dickel #12 is probably the sweetest whiskey (im including all bourbons, canadians, scotches, irish, japanese..etc) that I have ever had. I would return it to lcbo, something is not right.

[portwood]

Picked up an Eagle Rare today and at the same time my friend purchased an Old Forester Signature and a Dickel. We cracked the Old Forester and I was pleasantly surprised, just as cherry nosed as I remember from many years ago and very smooth sweet and quite enjoyable. The Dickel however I found to have a prominent sour smell as well as a sourness on the taste quite contrary to the Forester. I'll be getting a Forester for myself very soon. I preferred my initial small sample tasting of it to both the EC12 and the Four Roses small batch.

Dickel...sour?! I don't think I ever seen those two words used in the same sentence. Dickel #12 is probably the sweetest whiskey (im including all bourbons, canadians, scotches, irish, japanese..etc) that I have ever had. I would return it to lcbo, something is not right.

I was going to type similar words last night but since I've only ever tasted it once I decided not to post. From the (small) sample I had a few weeks ago I did not notice any sourness.

[Smithford]

Agreeing and disagreeing.

We cracked the Old Forester and I was pleasantly surprised, just as cherry nosed as I remember from many years ago and very smooth sweet and quite enjoyable.

Liked OF Sig, didn't love it. It's pretty straightforward tasting. A good solid drinking bourbon. OK value at $45, but I'd only buy it again at $35. Depending on the state, this can be had in the US for under $20. My recent notes:

Old Forester Signature
Color: Brown, like 1970s wood panelling. Translucent.
Nose: Bourbony. Chocolatey, but not real chocolate - chocolate fudge? Riesen? Deep in the background maybe orange zest, or maraschino cherry. Ever had a Lowney's Cherry Blossom? There you go.
Taste: Bourbony. Comes in waves of sweet and bitter. The sweet contains typical caramel, but also maybe waffles ... no, it's cornbread. The bitter is a delicate coffee bean bitterness. Nice, unpretentious, straightforward with few subtleties.
Finish: On the thin side, for the proof. Medium length with mostly the bitterness remaining.

The Dickel however I found to have a prominent sour smell as well as a sourness on the taste

I don't know why, but I really like Dickel 12. Possibly that's just because it's something new. It has a quirky flavor that I've described before as being like Juicy Fruit gum. Maybe that's the sourness you're picking up.

[Smithford]

Just noticing now.

What I have open in my cabinet at the moment (among others): Dickel 12 (with it's Juicy Fruit sweetness), Old Forester Signature (which has the aroma of a Cherry Blossom), and High West Rendezvous Rye (which has a distinctive, intense Thrills Gum profile).

I'm really rolling with the '70s candy store theme.

[bebdo]

I don't know why, but I really like Dickel 12. Possibly that's just because it's something new. It has a quirky flavor that I've described before as being like Juicy Fruit gum. Maybe that's the sourness you're picking up.

I agree. Zunak, something wrong with your sample - I went through a full bottle of Dickel 12 recently - it's got a different flavor profile than your regular bourbons - but no sourness ... more like Juicy Fruit gum as Smithford says.

[Zunak]

Interesting... thanks guys, now I really do believe there was something wrong with that particular Dickel. I used to drink a lot...I mean a LOT of bourbon back in my younger days when things went better with coke I loved Dickel, both No.12 and No.8 and never experienced the sourness that I did yesterday, but you know how things do change and both my friend and I were surprised at the Dickel and just figured that they must have f#@ked with the recipie. You know like most things "new and improved" and since the Old Forester had every bit the same cherry signature as the last bottle I had some 20yrs ago I figured they had just changed the Dickel. I didn't buy it my friend did so I'll tell him to take it back.